N1’s ongoing series of interviews “World in Times of Corona” tries to provide insight into what we are going through as a global community and where the pandemic might lead us. Foreign affairs editor, Ivana Dragicevic, is talking to David McNair, executive director for global policy at the ONE organisation.
Co-founded by Bono, ONE is involved in development projects such as combating extreme poverty and prevention of contagious diseases; the fights which are, as their mission statement says, about justice and equality and not charity.
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How does ONE see the situation with the coronavirus?
This is obviously a global emergency, and the people are vulnerable all around the world. We need to all stand together in responding to this emergency and taking responsibility for our own actions in terms of social distancing, hand washing and such. But it’s also an example of how, in the world that we live in, we need to cooperate and we need to invest in global public goods, like health systems in pandemic preparedness. If we don’t do that, the risks in far-off places can come to be major risks to us in our local communities.
The first thing we need to do is emergency response, we need to make sure that the most vulnerable aren’t left behind, that we’re protecting our health workers with protective equipment, and that we’re all playing a part in supporting our community. But we also need to think about the economic response.
The one thing that we’re particularly concerned about is the impact on African countries. We’ve already seen a massive dip in trade and economic growth. If you look at the way those societies are organised, the kinds of measures that we’ve taken in Europe and North America just won’t be possible. If you have millions of people who don’t have access to clean water in their homes, you can’t implement the same hand-washing programmes. Also, with people in the cities densely packed together, social distancing can’t work the same way.
Also if you look at the way we’ve dealt with it here in Europe and North America, a lot of that has been facilitated by internet connectivity which, in many African countries, is limited to a small part of the population. So there are major challenges and I think we need to think about the response in those countries as well as fighting the fires in Europe and North America.
Can a kind of a multilateral, or regional, response be sufficient when we look at where multilateralism was before the coronavirus outbreak? For years, experts have been warning that the next big pandemic is not a matter of if, but when. Are you an optimist that we can be wiser and do these kinds of policies on a global level after this?
We were seeing, already, in the past years, the weakening of multilateralism, but I think that at the times of crises people do come together and realise that we have a common enemy. We need much more of that. It was encouraging to see the G20 leaders come together yesterday to say they will do whatever it takes to defeat this virus and respond to the economic consequences. So I think there are positive signals but, of course, we need more coordinated action.
Big crises such as this one tend to stimulate our thinking about how our societies are run, what way do we want to prioritise our resources. After WWII, that’s how the Bretton-Woods institutions were set up. I personally cannot think of a similar crisis, since WWII, that has affected so many people’s daily lives in the way that this has, and I hope it does prompt some soul-searching, and not just on pandemic preparedness, which obviously needs to happen, but also on international regulations which, apparently, no country is up to scratch on. There is no comparison between the costs necessary to do that and the costs that will come as a result of this crisis.
It’s also an opportunity for us to think about inequality, about cooperating with our neighbours, whether they be on the same street or on a different continent, because our global world and this virus show us that when these risks, like viruses, like climate change as well, they don’t respect borders, we need to be in this fight together.
You mentioned inequality, one of the most challenging issues of our time, even before the coronavirus. What’s the warning that you can give the world concerning the issue of inequality in these times?
There’s no sea large enough or a wall high enough to protect you from the risks posed whenever people don’t have basic support, whenever they face conflict, or don’t have the income, the money, or the resilience to defend themselves. Whenever you have migration, when you have pandemics, when you have conflicts that spill over into rich countries.
I think we just need to realise we need to manage our societies differently and that means looking after and investing in education systems, health systems, in social protection for the most vulnerable. I think the risk with this pandemic is that whether you’re in Croatia, or in Belgium, or in Ireland, there will be differential impacts. Those who have contract jobs and remain paid through this crisis will come out better out of this crisis than those who freelance, and the same applies for rich and poor countries. Those who have limited safety nets will really struggle.
In the Ebola crisis in 2014, the number of people dying from other diseases, like polio and meningitis and so on, went up because routine immunisation wasn’t happening. So there are spill-over effects of all of this that we need to be thinking about. The basic principle that where you live shouldn’t determine whether you live, I think, needs to be embedded into every decision we make, because if it isn’t, then we’re just exposing ourselves to these kinds of risks again and again.
When we would talk about inequality before this, one of the big discussions globally was taxation, the question of tax havens. Do you think someone can benefit from this crisis and where can we find extra funds for creating these kinds of long-term policies beneficial for us as a global community?
The G20 announced they were making a fiscal stimulus worth five trillion dollars. That money has to come from somewhere, and I think, in the long-term after this crisis, taxes will inevitably have to rise, and those taxes should be equitable. Those with the most should pay the most, that’s clear. The thing with the tax havens is, because they provide financial secrecy, they allow people to skip the net. That’s both irresponsible and facilitates corruption and causes all kinds of corrosion in our economy.
One of the interesting things about this virus is that the way in which it can be transmitted in ungoverned spaces, whether it be through organised crime, through human trafficking, modern slavery. In areas of the Sahel, for example, where there’s no effective government, there is no way of effectively managing the virus in that context.
But there is an interesting parallel. Tax havens, where people can escape regulation and taxation, those are also ungoverned spaces and the resources that we need to respond to these crises are not being captured because people can hide their money. So I think that’s an issue that needs to be addressed and put back on the agenda so that we can address the inequalities that exist in our world and make investments into these kinds of public goods.
ONE is active a lot in Africa on all those issues that you’ve mentioned. We also know that by 2050 the African population will basically double. On the one side, the continent is facing all these problems, on the other it’s full of resources and human potential for the future. How should we look at Africa in this moment of the pandemic?
The young people of Africa are full of energy and ideas. Recent polls show that they are much more optimistic than their peers in Europe, but we need to invest in education and healthcare to make sure those people fulfil their potential, because if they don’t have opportunities, if they can’t find jobs, if they don’t have the skills to be entrepreneurial, then they’re going to be frustrated and potentially angry and that poses a threat in itself.
But the other thing to say is that, there are resources, not just natural, but intellectual resources on the continent, experiences that we can learn from. The way that a number of African countries have responded to this pandemic is actually much better than European countries because they have the experience of dealing with polio or Ebola. A number of weeks ago, people flying into Ethiopia for example were being tested, and at the same time people flying into Belgium and Italy were not. So I think there’s a lot that we can share and learn, it’s not a one-way street of the African countries just needing help. They can also bring a lot of skills, experience, human resources, and natural resources to solve these global problems.
As an organisation, you have advocated and helped a lot to ensure that vaccines reach areas where it’s most needed. Are you in any way involved in this global network of finding the vaccine for COVID-19?
Yes, we’ve been working a lot with GAVI, the Vaccine Alliance, and they are part of the committee that’s looking for the COVID-19 vaccine. What we will be advocating for is that they have enough resources both to carry on their normal work, but also, when the vaccine becomes available, to roll it out to the most disadvantaged communities and the poorest people because, if they don’t have a vaccine, then the virus is going to pose a risk to all of us. That is something we’ll be fighting very hard for in the coming weeks and months.
The EU is the biggest international donor of development aid. There was a big discussion in the bloc before the outbreak about multiannual financial framework. We see that after this crisis the budget will probably need to be enlarged because of the consequences of the pandemic. What would you say to the EU concerning development aid and global health programmes?
Even before this crisis, we were making the case that the multiannual financial framework should include €140 billion over the next seven years for its development programmes. We were making exactly the case that, if you don’t invest into these global public goods, in health system, in education, in pandemic preparedness, then these aren’t just risks for poor countries, they will come and hit European countries as well. That case is even more urgent and even stronger now, so we’ll keep pushing that.
I think for EU to look inward at a time when we need global cooperation is the wrong thing to do and I’ve been encouraged by the Commission President’s viewpoint that Europe needs to take a stand in the world and shape politics in a way that respects democracy, investments in human rights, health and so on. I think we’re hearing the right signals, now what we need is the right decisions and the real money on the table to back those signals up.
What kind of effect can this have on the global food supply chain, on agriculture and so on?
There is a risk that if people’s incomes fall, they won’t be able to afford food, and for countries that import food, if the supply chains do not remain open, that’s going to mean major risk.
Already, before this crisis, hundreds of millions of people were malnourished and hungry. That’s part of the reason why we’ve been supporting the African finance ministers’ call for a stimulus package for Africa that would provide 100 billion dollars of support and address the financial impact of the virus and look at the way in which debt repayments made by African countries to private companies, China, and the Paris Group, could be suspended to provide immediate liquidity for those countries.
I think we also need to be looking at social protection programmes and to protect those who are most vulnerable. If you look at the G20 measures that are being rolled out, worth five trillion dollars, that money needs to be found and needs to go to support African countries because of their specific vulnerabilities.
We are living in an emergency situation; governments are basically putting out decrees and measures which can put the sphere of human rights and democracy under a question mark right now. How important is it to be, on the one hand careful because we’re going through a pandemic, but on the other hand, vigilant about these things?
It’s like we’re in a war, and we need to fight like we’re in a war. But the other thing is, human rights are not partisan issues, they aren’t right-wing or left-wing principles, they are universal principles and we need to respect them, stand up for them, to call out people when they flout those principles. So I think we need to keep an eye on that, particularly when it comes to data collection, but also steps that are being taken behind the scenes by some leaders to cement their power and impose control over citizens in the long term.
So we need civil society groups to be tracking that, to be looking at the changes and, whenever the crisis is over, to be fighting that those emergency measures aren’t made permanent.
You’ve launched an interesting initiative, “Stories of Hope”, which you’ve called the stories of global solidarity and unity. How important is that in these kinds of situations?
In these times of uncertainty people are looking for hope. What we’ve seen in the recent weeks from Italy, the UK, Spain, are people applauding health workers and thanking them for their bravery, which is both inspiring and encouraging. We need more of that.
Our media, the way it exists at the moment, amplifies the most extreme stories, and often those are the most negative stories, but actually, I certainly believe that everyday people are good people, they are trying to do their best, they’re supporting one another, they’re looking out for one another, and one of the great things to come out of this crisis is that that is actually more visible now.
So those stories of hope are so important to share with others, both so that they can be inspired to take their own action, but also so that leaders can see that and follow that example and take inspiration from it.
